But the fact that the orientation itself is most likely involuntary in no way excuses its indulgence (no more than heterosexuals are excused for adultery).
There is a common misconception flying around Christian circles that claims that at some point, every homosexual chose to become homosexual. They intellectually resist any indication to the contrary. If scientists discovered a "gay" gene (possibly the xq28 chromosome) tomorrow, there would be many Christians who would no longer know how to condemn the practice of homosexuality. They've built a huge part of their defense of the Biblical doctrine of marriage on shaky foundations.
These days, we hear a lot about tolerance. The liberals preach it and the conservatives go running out of the room with their hands over their ears. The problem is a faulty understanding of the difference between acceptance and love. The liberals have something right. We should love the homosexual. There is absolutely no justification for holding up a sign that says "God hates fags" at a gay pride parade. Besides being completely wrong, people who do this are sending out a message of hate to a people they are called to love. The liberals therefore equate love with acceptance.
The conservatives have something right too. We don't have to accept homosexuality into our homes and churches. We have a duty to the body of Christ, and to the homosexuals themselves. We are doing them no favors by telling them that there is nothing wrong with their behavior. Practicing homosexuals should be barred from church membership and from partaking of the Lord's Table (just as anyone living in grievous sin should be, homosexuality is not uniquely abominable in God's eyes). However, does a father cease to love his son, because his son is disobedient to him? No, he loves his son; therefore, he sends him to his room without his supper. I would be extremely surprised if anyone was ever positively changed because someone withheld love from him. Donald Miller in "Blue Like Jazz" pointed out how seriously flawed and downright sinful a method it is to seek to change someone through not loving them. It is hopeless and selfish. Love is the social catalyst.
So, liberals love and wrongly accept; conservatives don't love, because they think to love is accept. Have you guessed the solution? It's the only other permutation. Love, but do not accept. Christ says "Come to Me just as you are." He does not say "come to me and you can stay just as you are." When we give the homosexual the latter message, it is a false gospel.
These are some things I have been thinking about lately. Please don't take this as me saying that every liberal, and every conservative is like this. I am obviously painting in very broad strokes and coloring in the lines provided by stereotypes.
Beerbohm
6 years ago
Homosexuality is involuntary? You should read some Augustine. Evil never entered the world, it is the rejection of the good that God created. Homosexuals choose to reject God's good plan for humanity. You may not have meant what you said in that regard, but rather, that homosexuals cannot help who they are attracted to. Again, I beg to differ. Self control is a God given capability. Please explain what you mean when you say that homosexuality is not a choice.
ReplyDelete-BobbyLee
Robert, I meant exactly what I said and I think it was pretty clear.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I need to read a little Augustine, eh? I'm pretty sure I've read Augustine more recently than you. Haven't I?
Second, you completely missed the point. I'm not saying that evil is involuntary. I'm saying that homosexuality might not be a choice (in fact, probably not). But the orientation itself is not the evil. It is certainly a consequence of evil, and man definitely chose that.
Of course self-control is God given. It still remains unanswered though whether or not "who we are attracted to" is a matter of self-control. I don't think it is. We must remember that the temptation to sin is not the sin itself. The sin is when we pass from attraction to lust (in homosexuality as well as with heterosexuality.) In the Lord's prayer we pray "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. . ."
Christians will not be able to reach homosexuals if they continue to argue that their orientation is a choice. This always leads the homosexual to become defensive on the one hand, and confident of the fact that it was not a choice. The excuse then becomes, that he didn't choose to be what he is. But this is no excuse. And that's my point.
Can't wait to see you in P'cola man.
Actually, I am currently in Augustine's City of God in school. Now that you have been suficiently one up-ed, I would like to add a few things. What is "homosexuality"?!? Is it the "orientation", as you called it, or the sinful lifestyle. I consider a homosexual to be a person who is living a sinful lifestyle, not a person who may have a certain "orientation" toward their same sex.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't think I can believe that the "orientation" is not a choice. If (BIG if) it is not a choice, then I understand that the orientation is not evil.
Again assuming that homosexuality is not a choice, and acknowledging that homosexuality is a curse from God, shouldn't anyone who is temped to lust a person of the same sex beg for the removal of the curse from them? If it is a curse from God, shouldn't someone with homosexual tendancies to pray for the removal of the curse from their life?
Looking forward to seeing you too man.
-BobbyLee
For those of you who don't know us it may have sounded like I was being a little harsh with Robert (Bobby Lee). However, we've been friends a long time and I'm just giving him a hard time.
ReplyDeleteI agree that we shouldn't call people homosexuals who aren't actively living the homosexual lifestyle. But I think it's perfectly permissible to refer to "homosexuality" as a general condition of being attracted primarily to members of one's own sex.
It's actually fairly certain that homosexuality (merely the orientation) is either genetic or a product of pyscho-social factors. This makes perfect sense to me. Who would choose to live this way. How can you choose who you are attracted to? I think the choice to live the lifestyle (for that is a choice) is one made out of desperation. It is not because of anything attractive to them (the rebellion, the terrible sickness, the social isolation, the STDs, etc.) but rather the wish to be accepted in some circle, no matter how small. In joining the homosexual community they are leaving the larger community of heterosexuals; but this doesn't matter to them because they already considered themselves as outsiders from this group.
Just to be clear, I believe that active homosexuality (living the homosexual lifestyle) is grievous sin. Once again, I don't think the fact that the orientation is not chosen mitigates this fact at all.
Your question, 'Why would anyone choose to live this way?' Is easy to answer. Because we are all sinful creatures that are burdened by fleshly desires.
ReplyDelete"For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is un-natural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and recieving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
Romans 1:25-27
This passage implies that because man disobeyed God, he gave them up to debase themselves. Their sin resulted from 'their error'. If it is a gene that makes a person homosexual, then that places the blame upon God, when God did himself condemn this contrary life-style.
Did God not create every person's body? Every atom, every cell, every molecule, every gene that makes up our bodies, God created. Now why would God, the righteous and just creator of all things, place a gene in our bodies that would create in us a desire that, if acted upon, resulted in grievous sin and separation from him? He wouldn't, because it would go against his very nature.
He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and in Him there is no contradiction. So then how can you presume that God would allow our 'bodies' to decide our sexual orientation one way or the other, and then turn around and say that homosexuality is an abomination? God did not make a man to be attracted to a man in that way, neither did he create women to lust after other women. Assuming homosexuality is the result of a gene that we are born with, implies that God meant for it to be this way, and therefore how could he judge homosexuals for desiring and doing what he created them to do? It's a contradiction in itself, and therefore cannot be. Homosexuality is the result of the depravity of man, and his searching for fulfillment in the WRONG places, and in doing the WRONG things. It is a concious choice.
All this to say that I do not hate homosexuals. After all, 'love the sinner, hate the sin.' I am tasked by God to love everyone as myself. But I absolutely do not condone homosexuality. It is a perversion of God's natural design, and it is looking for fulfillment outside of God's plan.
Ashley,
ReplyDeleteHello again. I apologize in advance for the length of this post. If any children are happening to be reading this comment (especially siblings of either of the authors) I ask that you please stop here. This is an issue I'm not comfortable discussing before young eyes and metaphorical ears.
I think that we agree for the most part. I have a few caveats though, and some things I wish to clarify.
Romans 1:25-27 (oddly, enough) is part of the passage my pastor preached on today (well, yesterday technically but I haven't gone to bed yet so we'll just pretend like it was today). His main message (and this is, of course, a huge over-simplification) was that homosexuality is a symptom of a greater sin; which is the sin of idolatry. Until the Church deals with this sin then dealing with the symptoms isn't going to get us anywhere. I, agree with him completely in this.
If homosexuality is God's judgment upon America's idolatry, let us compare it with another one of God's judgments; this time on the Israelites. Let us compare homosexuals to the Chaldeans. Did the Chaldeans choose to be Chaldeans? In some sense they chose in their hearts to reject God, but in another sense God hardened their hearts so as to punish the Israelites through them (God's ways are mysterious to man). And the Israelites were led into captivity. They were taken into their land but they had to refuse to bow down to their idols.
Arguing that (unconditionally, and without looking at any of the research) that homosexuals chose their orientation is, I think a dangerous position to be in. It seems like a stable spot to stand on but you have to be careful because putting too much hope in science is always dangerous.
I don't think there's a gay gene (among other problems with the supposition, the chances of it getting passed on are rather slim), but my point is that it makes no difference - since my position would be exactly the same if there was one. Either way, homosexuality is God's judgment on idolatry. And either way, homosexual practice is undeniably (assuming you agree with the Bible; and we both do) wrong.
Homosexuality is a miserable lifestyle. That's why I say that I don't think anybody would choose it. I think it is a result of a poor relationship with the same-sex parent (which the homosexual did not choose), or a failure to make same-sex friends.
With this cause at its root, it becomes an addiction. Most addictions start with a choice; a decision to indulge a pleasure that quickly spirals out of control until it's no longer a choice. Unlike, arguably, all other addictions ( smoking, illicit drugs, alcohol, you name it) an addiction to homosexuality can be formed involuntarily - through some form of molestation.
This is why, I am grieved to see Christians holding hateful signs at gay-pride parades. Not that they are wrong (although they sometimes are), but that they are insensitive - which is just as bad. They really don't know the need of the hour, and that need is love. So, that's good what you said "Hate the sin but love the sinner."
I first want to start out by saying that I am really enjoying exchanging ideas with you. I dont want it to seem like I am attcking you in any way, but as iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the face of his friend.(Prov 27:17)
ReplyDeleteGod did use the Chaldeans for the carrying out of his will, but he used that which was already in them. He did not make the Chaldeans reject himself, and turn to witch craft just so he could use them to punish the Isrealites. That just goes to show that God uses bad circumstances for his good, as he can also do with homosexuals.
"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has concieved, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."
James 1:13-15
So Each man in himself chooses to act on his lustful notions, and is then thrust into the sinful practice of homosexuality.
In regards to homosexuality being a consequence of idolatry, that may well be. But idolatry was still a choice made by the sufferer of the consequences.
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap. For he sowing to his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh. But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit."
Galatians 6:7-8
Sowing and reaping is an inescapable truth. For every burden a man has, has been reaped undoubtedly because of something he has sown in his past. Sow iniquity, reap judgement, and the consequences thereof.
However, I agree that showing nothing but hate and contempt towards the homosexuals is no way to win them for our Lord. You do get more bees with honey, than with vinegar. We are also tasked to warn them of their ultimate fate if they continue with such abominable practices.
"When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you do not give him warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked one shall die in his iniquity; but I will require his blood at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul."
Ezekial 3:18-19
There are no gray areas when it comes to homosexuality in God's word. It is an abomination before God, and the practice of homosexuality is referred to as such several times through out the Bible.
"If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be on them."
Leviticus 20:13
"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed, nor could they blush; therefore they shall fall among those who fall. At the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, says Jehovah."
Jeremiah 6:15
In the first instance, the word refers to the practice of homosexuality, and in the second it refers to the practice of idolatry. Both end in the same judgement.
There is a really good quote that I got from Matthew Henry's commentary on the Bible:
"Those that are shameless are graceless and their case is hopeless. But those that will not submit to a penitential shame, nor take that to themselves as their due, shall not escape an utter ruin; for so it follows: Therefore they shall fall among those that fall; they shall have their portion with those that are quite undone; and, when God visits the nation in wrath, they shall be sure to be cast down and be made to tremble, because they would not blush."
God does hate what they are doing, and we are not to be tolerant. Tolerance is the root of many problems in this country, and is in no way how we are called to act towards those who are going against God. Granted you also have the other extreme of radical hate, which is not Christ-like, and also of no profit.
Thank you. I enjoy discussing these issues too.
ReplyDeleteYes, I totally agree with that. By the way, go to www.Godhatesfags.com
These are the people I'm arguing against. I have a much harder time loving these people than I do homosexuals. I really don't understand this, and I could feel my blood pressure rising as I was first reading this website. God forgive them.
Westboro Baptist Church is the extreme. But there are so many evangelical Christians who aren't quite so extreme but still think of homosexuality is the ultimate evil. Of course we should not take it lightly, since it is a perversion of God's holy ordinance of marriage. It is a big deal. But I don't think this should be the focus of as many sermons as it is. There are other sins, and many more heinous than homosexuality.
Yes, God does hate what they are doing. But I think that we should be sympathetic with them to some extent. To be sympathetic does not have to mean that you approve; it only means that you understand where they are coming from and can communicate that to them. These people are broken. We were all broken, just not in the same ways.
As far as tolerance goes, I think you are right on. There's a big difference between tolerance and love, and in fact I think they are mutually exclusive in this case. Like you quoted from Ezekiel, letting someone continue in sin (tolerance) is a morally culpable action - the spiritual equivalent of letting someone drown.
But in the case of someone drowning, yelling: "attention swimmer, you are drowning" into a megaphone isn't going to cut it. In fact, it's almost certainly just going to be annoying (if I were drowning I'm quite sure I wouldn't be in the mood).
In the same way, yelling: "attention sinner, you are going to hell" isn't going to do much. It is the first step in evangelism (though only effective in personal interaction where trust is involved) but it just sounds like a taunt if you don't follow it up with the gospel.
Peace,
Rob
Rob,
ReplyDeleteI went to that site, and oh my goodness! I absolutely do not agree with those people. They are filled with hate and yuck, and as a result they are leading many people astray. Your comment about someone drowning really puts things into perspective... and it kind of made me laugh. How true it is.
It was very good to talk with you on this, and I look forward to your next 'controversial' thread. Haha.
In Christ,
~Ashley